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alaskaone
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(Date Posted:02/18/2014 12:26 AM)
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While trying to comprehend our friend, NFF, I stumbled upon the following essay:   https://medium.com/editors-picks/29bab88d50 .

I grew up on star trek but left it behind a couple of decades ago, finding it shallow and simplistic for the most part.  Anyway, the essay introduced me to a new concept;  post scarcity.

Obviously, it wouldn't work today or in the near future;  we have no infinite, cheap source of power and without it there will be scarcity.

But, supposing tomorrow nuclear fusion is invented and perfected and everyone in the world loves it including enviro-wacko's and the epa.  Simultaneously, storage batteries are invented that can power a full sized car 2,000 miles before coming to a halt.

Initially, I thought that if no one has to work any more, why would anyone?  Okay, add robots that will do all the nasty, crappy jobs that men do now... and since we're making things up, they all look like the cylon, Sharon Valeri... sans desire to murder us all.

3-D printers are, it appears, going to be capable of miracles.  Assume that if a 3-D printer can create a functioning kidney or heart or hand... there is no limit to what one could do.

Ta-daa, end of scarcity. 

Is it impossible?  Well, of the three things (unlimited energy, robots, and decentralized manufacturing)... we are well on the way to having the last two.  Fusion is a problem but the other two?  Almost there.

So, I guess the fundimental question is...

1)  What would happen if labor/reward were separated?

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There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/18/2014 12:31 AM)

 Link please!
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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/18/2014 12:41 AM)

Sorry, hadn't quite finished...
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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Reply To alaskaone
(Date Posted:02/18/2014 12:40 PM)

Reply to alaskaone (02/18/2014 12:26 AM)

1)  What would happen if labor/reward were separated?


Wellfare?  
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/18/2014 5:54 PM)

 see the movie "Wall-E"


humans would devolve into blobs of meaty-shit cared for by machines

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Reply To shiftless2
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 12:39 AM)

Reply to shiftless2 (02/18/2014 9:40 AM)

Reply to alaskaone (02/18/2014 12:26 AM)

1)  What would happen if labor/reward were separated?


Wellfare?  

Yes, sort of.  The postulation was, however, that there were no longer any real limits upon either products or services... you can get whatever you want or need by telling your 3d printer to make it or having a robot do what you need done. 

So would it matter at all?
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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Reply To Punkoidragon
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 12:49 AM)

Reply to Punkoidragon (02/18/2014 2:54 PM)

 see the movie "Wall-E"

humans would devolve into blobs of meaty-shit cared for by machines

Would you?  In Wall-E, those people were confined to ships with nothing to do even if they wanted to do something.

I work a crappy job that I don't like to provide food, shelter and stuff for myself and my family.  If I no longer had to worry about such things because my magic 3d printer or replicator and my cylon provide everything we want or need... without imposing any sort of burdens upon anyone else... why would that not be a great thing?  I could do what I want, as much as I want, for as long as I want.

Turn into a fat blob?  Well, probably true for many but many are already fat blobs so... so what?

I don't really believe 'post scarcity' is possible... too much magical thinking, too much 'something for nothing.

On the other hand... what if it was?  Would it work?  How would it work?  What would go wrong?

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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 11:28 AM)

Why are you working at a crappy job you don't like, you've had opportunity for decades, why didn't you further your education in another area, lot of people work and go to school and have families. Isn't that part of the conservative mantra? Youv'e disappointed me and turned into a liberal whinger.
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 12:01 PM)

On the other hand... what if it was?  Would it work?  How would it work?  What would go wrong?

There would still be like you who say one thing, to cause trouble, and then do another, enjoy a free ride.

 

These are the very same questions I was asking and you disagreed with the questions, blaming the government that you work for.

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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 5:56 PM)

 another problem with the "post-scarcity" utopia.  Some people LIKE causing problems for other people.  They steal and vandalize peoples things, not because they are poor or they need something, but because they like to harm other people.   What would be the effect of such a world on people like that? 

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Reply To katie5445
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 10:03 PM)

Reply to katie5445 (02/19/2014 8:28 AM)

Why are you working at a crappy job you don't like, you've had opportunity for decades, why didn't you further your education in another area, lot of people work and go to school and have families. Isn't that part of the conservative mantra? Youv'e disappointed me and turned into a liberal whinger.

A job sucks.  People don't like to do jobs that suck.  In order to get people to do jobs that suck, lots of compensation has to be offered. 

Lots of compensation is what I get.  In fact, I make more than most every college educated person I know and I do not have to contribute to social security which means that even if I decide to latch onto the social security tit, there won't be much in there for me to suck out of poor peoples pockets.
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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Reply To Punkoidragon
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 10:10 PM)

Reply to Punkoidragon (02/19/2014 2:56 PM)

 another problem with the "post-scarcity" utopia.  Some people LIKE causing problems for other people.  They steal and vandalize peoples things, not because they are poor or they need something, but because they like to harm other people.   What would be the effect of such a world on people like that? 


We would be removing 'poor', remember?  Tell the 3d printer what you want and there it is.  Seems reasonable to speculate that property crimes would dwindle a great deal.  At anyrate, someone steals your TV, tell the 3d printer to build you a new one.  It costs nothing, after all.

As for sociopaths... we kill them when we find them... same as now.  Juvenile delinquents... same thing we do now.  Throw them in jail or take them away from their parents.

One possible problem... things that cost nothing are worth nothing.  Would people just trash everything as is the case in public housing?  Hard to say.  I take good care of my stuff, hard to imagine that would change merely because I could print up something for free... especially if I could print up, say, a super-cub or a fine bicycle.
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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Reply To nofencesfacing
(Date Posted:02/19/2014 10:14 PM)

Reply to nofencesfacing (02/19/2014 9:01 AM)

On the other hand... what if it was?  Would it work?  How would it work?  What would go wrong?

There would still be like you who say one thing, to cause trouble, and then do another, enjoy a free ride.
A couple days ago, I took two solid strikes to the groin and got spit on while stripping out a suicidal drunk.  So, NFF, take your 'free ride', fold it up until it's all sharp corners and stick it up your ass.

 

These are the very same questions I was asking and you disagreed with the questions, blaming the government that you work for.
And work on your reading comprehension.



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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.”
― H.L. Mencken

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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/20/2014 10:10 AM)

A couple days ago, I took two solid strikes to the groin and got spit on while stripping out a suicidal drunk.  So, NFF, take your 'free ride', fold it up until it's all sharp corners and stick it up your ass.

 

LOL. You can not even handle one drunk?  Then you come back at me with you tuff talk.  LOL.  Maybe if you ate regularly, learn to control that temper of yours and got a real job in the real world then you could toughen up.  Once you have done that then you could come down to Texas and I would show you how to clear out a bar full of drunks.

 

And work on your reading comprehension.

 

You are the one who cannot comprehend.  But slowly you are starting to understand some points of economic.  You now know what the true national debt is.  Soon you may be saying we should follow the Keynesian Theory of running a surplus during boom times to build up a surplus, control economic bubbles, and learn to enjoy living in deflation economy.

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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/20/2014 2:19 PM)

AK, now back in my day we would have beat the snot outta this miscreant & made him do the funky chicken. We called it wall ball. Now with the cameras the good ol days are just that..........sigh.


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Reply To alaskaone
(Date Posted:02/20/2014 6:46 PM)

Reply to alaskaone (02/19/2014 10:10 PM)

Reply to Punkoidragon (02/19/2014 2:56 PM)

 another problem with the "post-scarcity" utopia.  Some people LIKE causing problems for other people.  They steal and vandalize peoples things, not because they are poor or they need something, but because they like to harm other people.   What would be the effect of such a world on people like that? 


We would be removing 'poor', remember?  Tell the 3d printer what you want and there it is.  Seems reasonable to speculate that property crimes would dwindle a great deal.  At anyrate, someone steals your TV, tell the 3d printer to build you a new one.  It costs nothing, after all.

As for sociopaths... we kill them when we find them... same as now.  Juvenile delinquents... same thing we do now.  Throw them in jail or take them away from their parents.

One possible problem... things that cost nothing are worth nothing.  Would people just trash everything as is the case in public housing?  Hard to say.  I take good care of my stuff, hard to imagine that would change merely because I could print up something for free... especially if I could print up, say, a super-cub or a fine bicycle.


I think you are wrong about the people in public housing.  It's the people who were born into that world that don't care, 1st generation welfare still try to care for their stuff.  It would be the same for a society with magic 3d printers.  Kids born and raised with those machines would just smash stuff and not care.  Absolutely.  You and I might not, but the next generation would.  Same can be said for a lot of the super rich.  Their spoiled kids tend to be a menace to their own and other peoples property.


I also think your missing my point about sociopaths.  They LIKE to hurt people.  They will look for new ways to do it. 

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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/22/2014 6:50 PM)


I know its long, but it's a 2 hour documentary about exactly what this thread is about.  And there's even a segment about 3d printers at 41:44. 


They show a program that people have made a 3d Printer that can be made on a 3d printer.  

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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/26/2014 10:20 PM)

We'd be more artistic, musical, intelligent.  Kindness would prevail and peace would rule the planet...song lyric alert.

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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/27/2014 8:08 AM)

How is welfare generational any longer when you have had a limit since 1996 of 5 yrs.?
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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/27/2014 12:53 PM)

That is just for federal programs.


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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/27/2014 5:38 PM)

 There's a endless stream of welfare programs. Welfare, Wic, Social Security, Disability, Unemployement, Cobra, Food Stamps, Blah Blah Blah BLah Blah Blah.   You can bounce back and forth from one to the next from the day your born till the day you die, and there's even ways to cheat the system and draw benefits much longer than what your "allowed" to.
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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/27/2014 6:10 PM)

Cobra? That's out, it's expensive. Bounce back and forth, right. The only way a person can bounce and live is working cash under the table, child support undeclared or crashing at a relatives/friends and claiming rent when there is none paid, claiming so and so babysits gets the cash when in actually they don't work, cheating. Welfare is impossible to live on since 1996 federal or otherwise.
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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/27/2014 10:27 PM)

C'mon Katie, & then there are the state, county & local programs to meld with the feds. And then of course there is Portlandia where young people go to retire.......that gluten free city of Prius driving recyclers.


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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:02/28/2014 9:13 AM)

Not in Texas.
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Reply To tommytalldog
(Date Posted:02/28/2014 9:41 AM)

Reply to tommytalldog (02/27/2014 8:27 PM)

C'mon Katie, & then there are the state, county & local programs to meld with the feds. And then of course there is Portlandia where young people go to retire.......that gluten free city of Prius driving recyclers.


T-Dog


What programs are those?
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:03/01/2014 8:31 AM)

Take on corporate welfare, first!
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:03/01/2014 10:59 PM)

 they only way to do that is passage of the fair tax.  No loop holes, everyone pays the same amount. 
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Re:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:03/02/2014 11:13 AM)

 Early in this thread there was a reference to the use of machines will turn us all into blobs of fat. I can guarantee you that my personal trainer will not allow that to happen to me. I call her "The Pain Nazi"
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RE:Post scarcity
(Date Posted:06/12/2018 9:08 PM)

In the very near future, governments will lose the ability to keep guns, drones, and other forbidden goods out of the hands of their subjects. They'll also be rendered impotent to enforce trade and technology embargoes. Power is shifting from the state to individuals and small groups courtesy of additive manufacturing—aka 3D printing—technology.

Additive manufacturing is poised to revolutionize whole industries—destroying some jobs while creating new opportunities. That's according to a recent report from the prestigious RAND Corporation, and there's plenty of evidence to support the dynamic and "disruptive" view of the future that the report promises.

Cont... You’ll Soon Be Able to Manufacture Anything You Want and Governments Will Be Powerless to Stop It

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