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Title: -$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast
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alaskaone
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(Date Posted:05/26/2010 10:01 AM)
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AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
TOPS $13,000,000,000,000;
DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975;
US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3%


None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure.  Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000.
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There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

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Reply To alaskaone
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 10:17 AM)


Too depressing.
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 10:18 AM)

Cloward-Pivens.
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 1:02 PM)

So in addition to cutting spending, how do we bring that down?
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 1:03 PM)

By cutting a shitload of entitlement spending.
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Reply To mrscorie
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 2:23 PM)

Reply to mrscorie (05/26/2010 1:02 PM)

So in addition to cutting spending, how do we bring that down?


Ask your feckless leader.  But, he's too busy spending money we don't have....
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 3:15 PM)



How do you spell this, Alaska, my math doesn't go that high.  13 Trillion?


 $13,000,000,000,000;


Doe_Eyes
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 3:20 PM)

When Bush was sworn in on January 20, 2001, the national debt was $5,727,776,738,304.64.

When "W" left office on January 20, 2009, the national debt was $10,626,877,048,913.08.

The growth in the national debt during his eight years in office: $4,899,100,310,608.44.

The average yearly growth in the national debt during Bush's presidency: $612,387,538,826.05.

http://agonist.org/amc/20090123/bushs_two_term_increase_in_the_national_debt 

Now, Bush wasn't left with two wars and a stock market crash, like Obama was. 

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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 3:41 PM)

CurrentDebt Held by the PublicIntragovernmental HoldingsTotal Public Debt Outstanding
05/25/20108,478,414,892,595.204,517,364,597,849.3212,995,779,490,444.52
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alaskaone
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Reply To Aprildaze
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 3:59 PM)

Reply to Aprildaze (05/26/2010 12:15 PM)

How do you spell this, Alaska, my math doesn't go that high.  13 Trillion?

Yes, $13 trillion... and climbing fast.

The republicrats have been spending like drunken sailors in a whore house and while some here would like to blame it all on a previous president, fact is it is congress that spends money, not the president.  It's just easier to point fingers at a single individual rather than hundreds of congressmen and senators.  Presidents also make handy markers in time even though what party gains the presidency rarely means that party also has control of the congress and senate.

For example, the last two years of the Bush presidency, democrats had control of both house and senate as they still do today.

But, to follow doeeyes example, laying blame on an individual rather than where it properly lay... with the house and senate, obama's spending in the first year or so is approaching what bush spent in 8 years.

If he continues, and it appears he has every intention of doing so, then at $2,373,000,000,000 per year we'll be looking at another $7,119,000,000,000 on top of the current 13 trillion for a total of, roughly, over $20 trillion in debt plus unfunded liabilities before the next presidential election.

Democrats.  Republicans.  They're both the same; republicrats.  Drunken sailors in whore houses using their children's names to fund their jollies.

The tea party movement aims to throw the lot of them out on their ears for what they've done and what they continue to do even at this very moment.
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

nofencesfacing
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:08 PM)

And Bush vetoed all the spending bills?  And Bush refused to spend the money?  And Bush stopped the housing bubble?  And Bush went after bin Laden?

Name one problem that
Bush solved in his eight years as president.

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alaskaone
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:19 PM)

I did not suggest republicans were not complicit in the evil doing.  Republicrats are one and the same and equally guilty.  They have all got to go.
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:36 PM)

NFF, the world is not binary. Disagree with Obama does not necessarily equal agree with Bush. I think Bush was crazy to launch two wars and do nothing to offset the cost. But, insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Spending more than you have and expecting anything but  an increased deficit would meet that definition. It doesn't matter if Obama spends for a different reason, the end is still a deficit. I disapproved under Bush, I disapprove under Obama.
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Yazmine88
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:51 PM)

" It doesn't matter if Obama spends for a different reason, the end is still a deficit. I disapproved under Bush, I disapprove under Obama."

OMG - You see no difference in the spending?  To simplify.....Trillions of dollars pissed away in a war that is/was totally unnecessary (Iraq)....versus saving America from a deep Depression, and giving its citizens health care?  

Investing in America's future....Or throwing $ down a sewer in Iraq.

Wow!!
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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:55 PM)

If you disapproved under Bush, you ought to disapprove ~ 3.5 times as much under Obama.  Obama's deficits are about that many times larger than Bush's largest deficits.

It is amazing how those who unfailingly support the Democrats conveniently ignore the fact that their party had control of the 110th Congress - that is, from January 3, 2007 onward.

It is also amazing how President Obama can do the same things as Bush and gain praise from that same contingent.

I despised what the administration of President Bush did - and I despise what this administration is doing even more, in proportion to the greater amount it is doing it.
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Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise.

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Reply To Yazmine88
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 5:57 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 6:51 PM)

" It doesn't matter if Obama spends for a different reason, the end is still a deficit. I disapproved under Bush, I disapprove under Obama."

OMG - You see no difference in the spending?  To simplify.....Trillions of dollars pissed away in a war that is/was totally unnecessary (Iraq)....versus saving America from a deep Depression, and giving its citizens health care?  

Investing in America's future....Or throwing $ down a sewer in Iraq.

Wow!!


Trillions pissed away in a war?  You care to document that figure?

Precisely how much defense funding (in general) and on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars has President Obama and the Democrats cut since then?
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Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise.

Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Reply To Yazmine88
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 6:14 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 5:51 PM)

" It doesn't matter if Obama spends for a different reason, the end is still a deficit. I disapproved under Bush, I disapprove under Obama."

OMG - You see no difference in the spending?  To simplify.....Trillions of dollars pissed away in a war that is/was totally unnecessary (Iraq)....versus saving America from a deep Depression, and giving its citizens health care?  

Investing in America's future....Or throwing $ down a sewer in Iraq.

Wow!!


If I am broke it doesn't matter to my mortgage company whether I spent the money on crack or a soup kitchen, I still don't have enough to pay my bills and I will be forclosed. The government needs to start thinking about spending like the average citizen does. I support a balanced budget. Always have. Doesn't matter who is in office.

But on the issue of war, have you looked at our defense budget? We are still throwing dollars into a sewer in Iraq and in Afghanistan.
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 6:16 PM)

We are still throwing dollars into a sewer in Iraq and in Afghanistan. ...

Precisely - and at an accelerated rate!
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Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise.

Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

Yazmine88
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 6:42 PM)

"If I am broke it doesn't matter to my mortgage company whether I spent the money on crack or a soup kitchen, I still don't have enough to pay my bills and I will be forclosed. The government needs to start thinking about spending like the average citizen does. I support a balanced budget. Always have. Doesn't matter who is in office. 

But on the issue of war, have you looked at our defense budget? We are still throwing dollars into a sewer in Iraq and in Afghanistan"

Mags, c'mon now... A Nation is not run like a household - not even close.  Never has been and never will be so to compare the two is impossible.

Now, If Bush had up'd taxes on Americans instead of giving cuts while waging 2 wars...perhaps we wouldn't have been so deeply in debt by the time the fool left office.

And of course we are still spending in Iraq....don't have much of a choice now do we?  Gotta clean up the mess.

Thanks to idiot Bush.
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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

magdalena115
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 6:50 PM)

yaz, if a nation is not run like a household then why so much consternation from so m any over Bush ruining the surplus that Clinton left? It can't be a good thing to have a surplus for one President and a bad thing for another. If it truly doesn't matter that we have a deficit, then why did Obama stop half way on health care? If deficits are not an issue or a concern, why not simply decree a public health care system for all? The reason is because spending DOES matter.

As for the Bush tax cuts. Agree completely. That was stated in my original post. If you launch two wars and don't have a way to pay for it, that is a problem. My issue is that virtually nothing has changed. We are still funding the two wars, escalated one of them (why does not matter when the bill comes due) and continued to add with the stimulus and health care. To borrow one of my phrases from McCrystal (who I suspect is next on the chopping block, BTW), that is just doubling down on a bad strategy. It doesn't matter to me why we were in debt when Obama took office or who caused it. What matters to me is that we are destroying our country from inside out with uncontrolled spending.  
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 6:53 PM)

BRAVO, MAGS!
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Yazmine88
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:00 PM)

 Sorry Mags, but you will never convince me that not spending would get us out of the mess we were in.  Without the Stim and other measures, we'd be in a Depresion right now.

Everyone is frustrated by this economic disaster. But I understand that grabbing the loudest arguement may be convenient, that doesn't make it correct.

We are on our way OUT of the mess.....The policies are working.  Whether you agree with them or not. :)




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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

alaskaone
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:11 PM)

Yaz, recessions and depressions are market corrections of bubbles and other problems.  We had a 70+ year housing bubble that needs to be corrected along with the associated financial shenanigans.

Preventing the correction from occuring will not solve the problem... just boot it down the road a year or two and make it that much worse.

The "policies are working" only if you think shooting up with heroin is a cure for withdrawls.

(Message edited by alaskaone On 05/26/2010 7:12 PM)
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There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

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Reply To Yazmine88
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:16 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 7:00 PM)

 Sorry Mags, but you will never convince me that not spending would get us out of the mess we were in.  Without the Stim and other measures, we'd be in a Depresion right now.
Everyone is frustrated by this economic disaster. But I understand that grabbing the loudest arguement may be convenient, that doesn't make it correct.

We are on our way OUT of the mess.....The policies are working.  Whether you agree with them or not. :)






Ah, but see, it isn't conveniently grabbed. It is something that has been a consistently stated belief for me and I have offered support for both Democrats (Rob Miller, Bayh, etc) who support a fiscally conservative approach and across the board criticism of members of both parties who do not. While it may or may not be correct, it is hardly grabbing the loudest or most convenient argument. If I were changing my position depending on which party or person was in office, that would be different, but my views are pretty consistent across administrations and even within an administration (i.e. I hold congress as responsible as I do the President).

As for the policies, some are working some are not. Afghanistan is not working (hence my belief that McCrystal will be the next pink slip). We are doing well with the CIA role, but the ground war is really getting nowhere.  

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Yazmine88
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:28 PM)

"Afghanistan is not working "

I guess we can join the other nations who have failed attempts to clean out that sewer. History does repeat itself if no one learns it the first/second time around, huh?
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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

alaskaone
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Re:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:29 PM)

Cause the ground war is basically a feeding frenzy for government contractors and local warlords and pond scum.  Did you know we built them a gazillion dollar power plant so they could have electricity?  We did!  It's awesome!

Thing is... it's diesel powered an there's no oil in afghanistan.  Plus, most of the country has no wiring.

That's just the tip of the stupidity...and even greater boondoggles are still continuing under obama.

I'm with Mags... both parties are respoonsible and both have got to get the boot but good.
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The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian

There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds

magdalena115
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Reply To Yazmine88
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:37 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 7:28 PM)

"Afghanistan is not working "

I guess we can join the other nations who have failed attempts to clean out that sewer. History does repeat itself if no one learns it the first/second time around, huh?


Pretty much. I actually maintained hope until I read McCrystal's assessment last year. I've always been one to give the military what they want, but his report was so dire it gave me pause. I  just don't believe it is winnable at this stage.
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Yazmine88
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RE:- $13,000,000,000,000.00. Thought you oughta know.
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:38 PM)

"We had a 70+ year housing bubble that needs to be corrected along with the associated financial shenanigans"

Well we haven't been in that bubble here.  I remember in the early 90's the bottom fell out of our housing market... big-time....and it took years to recover. 

If I remember correctly...the rest of the country suffered too at that time.
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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

Yazmine88
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Status: Proud
From: USA
Registered:07/16/2008
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Reply To magdalena115
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 7:45 PM)

Reply to magdalena115 (05/26/2010 6:37 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 7:28 PM)

"Afghanistan is not working "

I guess we can join the other nations who have failed attempts to clean out that sewer. History does repeat itself if no one learns it the first/second time around, huh?


Pretty much. I actually maintained hope until I read McCrystal's assessment last year. I've always been one to give the military what they want, but his report was so dire it gave me pause. I  just don't believe it is winnable at this stage.

It's a boondoggle now.... of monumental proportions.....
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We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

Punkoidragon
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Posts:6734
From: USA
Registered:12/04/2008
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Reply To mrscorie
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 8:03 PM)

Reply to mrscorie (05/26/2010 1:02 PM)

So in addition to cutting spending, how do we bring that down?


There isn't anything else.  Thats it.  Stop Spending.


No Free Healthcare.  no Free retirement.  No Free Food.  No fake government jobs (goodbye unions, so long). No Dumb Wars. No bailouts for failed businesses.  No foreign Aid (including rebuilding places we blewed to hell).  No pensions for ANY government worker even if it's not "fair".  

That and CUTTING taxes, which Encourages Growth. 

But you can't cut taxes and keep spending, you have to do both.  One wont work without the other.  You could actually maintain taxes and cut spending, but it would work much better to do both.  You sure as hell can't raise taxes while cutting spending.  Can't tax people over 100%.  That would be national suicide.

Just remember this:  Raising Taxes = Spending and Maintaining current taxes = Spending.    Raising Taxes is Spending future work not yet done and maintaining the current tax rate (excessive taxes) is Spending Work already taxed in the past, because you have decreased the value of the future and decreased the value of past efforts even though those have already been taxed. 

High taxes, in order to be most effecient and of value, MUST be short lived and with long intervals between.  A steady high taxation is the same as economic cancer.

Low taxes essentially does the same thing as all the programs and garbage that must be cut and so the two things cancel eachother out. In the same sense that Not Having Radiation Therapy and Not doing whatever it was that would have caused the Cancer in the first place would cancel eachother out. 
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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

natalie727
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Score:4892
Posts:3684
From: USA
Registered:07/20/2008
Time spent: 3200 hours

Reply To Yazmine88
(Date Posted:05/26/2010 8:46 PM)

Reply to Yazmine88 (05/26/2010 7:00 PM)

 Sorry Mags, but you will never convince me that not spending would get us out of the mess we were in.  Without the Stim and other measures, we'd be in a Depresion right now.
Everyone is frustrated by this economic disaster. But I understand that grabbing the loudest arguement may be convenient, that doesn't make it correct.

We are on our way OUT of the mess.....The policies are working.  Whether you agree with them or not. :)





Please see depression of 1920. The numbers were just as bad as they are today, we got out of it in 18 months and we did the exact opposite of what we are doing now. 

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-depression-youve-never-heard-of-1920-1921/#
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