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Title: ACBL Poll on online gaming
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Wildflower1
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Score: 21
Posts: 21
From: USA
Registered: 01/10/2009

(Date Posted:07/03/2009 15:19 PM)
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Anyone else get the email poll from the ACBL marketing team?  Lots of questions regarding online gaming, sectional and regional events and questions in regards to specific ACBL magazine columns like "the bidding lab", the Grannoveter's, etc.  I thought it was asking good questions in regards to the future direction of online bridge gaming.
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Taiga_Bridge
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Score:133
Posts:133
From: USA
Registered:01/09/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/04/2009 01:36 AM)

 I was also selected, and it seems we got the same set of questions (interesting that the Bulletin Items one is the same items for everyone.)


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PriorKnowledge
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Score:131
Posts:131
From: USA
Registered:01/11/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/06/2009 04:27 AM)

I got it, too. I made some strong suggestions:
1) No online sectionals nor regionals because of cheating
2) ACBL should make online rules that are common for all online sites. It is shameful that ACBL has not taken up a set of rules for all online clubs.
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Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

Wildflower1
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Score:21
Posts:21
From: USA
Registered:01/10/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/14/2009 19:00 PM)

I agree with your comments regarding writing online rules.  I said same.  However, I think you are naive if you believe that online games are not going to get bigger and bigger and the demand for sectionals and regionals online is going  to happen whether you want it or not.  I believe the issue of cheating needs to be addressed and that the time for "overlooking strange results" is about over.  Those amazing leads and defenses days are coming to an end, IMO.  ...and stellar declarer play is going to be scrutinized.  Kibbiting is going to go away for one.
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PriorKnowledge
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Score:131
Posts:131
From: USA
Registered:01/11/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/15/2009 09:37 AM)

barring kibbing won't help. how about friends sitting in opposite directions. You don't even need your partner involved for this way of cheating.
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Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

Bill_Higgins
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Score:142
Posts:142
From: USA
Registered:01/08/2009

Reply To PriorKnowledge
(Date Posted:07/16/2009 17:13 PM)

Reply to PriorKnowledge (07/15/2009 07:37 AM)

barring kibbing won't help. how about friends sitting in opposite directions. You don't even need your partner involved for this way of cheating.

Barring kibitzers is certainly not the whole solution, but it is an important step. It does reduce (but not eliminate) the opportunities for cheating that do not involve collusion.

I think there remains a problem with the need (I assume for slander liability issues) to not publicly deal with cheaters that are found out. This results in a public perception that nothing is being done (after all, no action is seen). This secrecy happens both at the on-line sites and at the Regional Authorities (i.e. ACBL). Fred Gitleman has stated that he has reported caught cheaters to the ACBL, but then never heard anything more (just like when we report cheaters to the on-line site). It would not take many instances of a caught cheater being publically drummed out of the ACBL to get everyones attention (but, there may be those liability issues).

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You must know the rules well - that you may break them wisely

Wildflower1
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Score:21
Posts:21
From: USA
Registered:01/10/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/18/2009 13:40 PM)

You need to correct your statement, Bill.  What Fred Gitelman said on July 2, 2009 was:

"All I can tell you is that we have barred more than a few people for suspected cheating in our ACBL games and ACBL regulations demand that we send them reports of such cases. I have no idea what ACBL does when they receive these reports. Probably they do whatever it is they do when they receive similar reports from real life clubs."


Note the word, "suspected".  I believe that in order to use your wording, that the persons accused were tried in some court (albeit ACBL or legal) and found guilty.  I don't know of any online club or private face to face club that is willing to take on that task.  They are satisfied to just ban the player, advise the ACBL, and go on with life.
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Bill_Higgins
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Score:142
Posts:142
From: USA
Registered:01/08/2009

RE:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/18/2009 21:01 PM)

I still maintain that without public evidence of cheaters being punished there will remain a perception that cheaters get away with it. This perception then leads a small number of players to then take up cheating themselves. Of course, such public actions do require a level of proof higher than mere suspision. I wish I knew how to get there.

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You must know the rules well - that you may break them wisely

lordcavendish
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Score:57
Posts:57
From: USA
Registered:01/07/2009

Re:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:07/19/2009 16:33 PM)

How about a simple message:

"A total of ___ players were suspended this week, for a period of two weeks, due to suspicion of cheating. Allegations will be investigated over these two weeks, and if enough evidence is gathered, some or all of these players will be permanently banned and their respective bridge organizations notified."

No names, but enough of a threat to get some attention.
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Tom R./LordCavendish

Jo_AnneM
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Score:28
Posts:28
From: USA
Registered:01/08/2009

RE:ACBL Poll on online gaming
(Date Posted:08/09/2009 11:32 AM)

Any bridge club owner/manager can look at the list of players banned or suspended from the ACBL.  You will see very few happening in recent years.  This tells me that clubs simply ban the players and either do not tell the ACBL or just report it as a kind of "banning at will" which a club is allowed to do, as long as it not discrimatory.

The last two ACBL cheating incidents that show up actually involve ftf incidents and well known people, and were unfortunately caught more or less "red handed".   

As to the ACBL poll.  It is being conducted by a third party.  I am not sure who is going to read the comments.  I, too, wrote a rather lengthy one.  The comments may be read by the marketing company and summarized as to type.  So many people I know received this poll that I wonder just how many it went to.  I just hope that more than the normal 2-3% answer it.
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